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 OHV4TN

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Rooster
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:51 am

Let's take it easy folks. This post is being closely monitored by the Moderators and I would hate to see it Locked or Deleted all together. Choose your words wisely and let's try and keep an open mind on discussion like this.

I for one would like to know more about the TWRA -v- TDEC debate without having to read thousands of pages of House Bills. Maybe there is a short answer to why TDEC or TWRA is the best organization to manage the trails.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:58 am

Rooster is 100% correct. This post was reported last night because of some of the bickering that seems to be starting. As Bootlegger and I have said many many times, this is an ATV site, not a political site although this pertains to the sport we all love.

If you can not be constructive only destructive, keep you thoughts to yourself or this post will be locked forever.

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Bootlegger
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:00 am

ivarussell, who was the fellow atv'er that wanted you to ask us and how did you hear about us here at Cumberland ATV Riders Question Question Question

Here is my point of view....TWRA is just wanting to make more money and apparently not spend it of put it back into ATV'ing.....just from seeing and hearing. I could be wrong and if I am that fine. I don't know everything nor have I done everything in my life. TDEC....I am not so sure about....I keep hearing all this water quality issue stuff.....thats fine. Here is the thing though. You have all these logging companies, construction companies, Canoeing people and many many others destroy the Creeks just as bad and in most cases ALOT more than our atv's do. Is anything being said to them???? If so I haven't seen it. They say we destroy road beds Rolling Eyes The water/rain runoff and erosion will destroy it just as bad if not more. Are they going to go out and build roofs over all the hills where there are trails and so on??? NO!!! Nature will change stuff just as much over time. If we were never even out there things would wash away and ruts would be made. I am not educated on most of this....but is TDEC going to go around to all OHV areas and build up rocks to cross the creeks?? I HATE politics and everyone on here knows that. LOL!! Nothing GOOD ever comes out of it....only fighting and people being mad at each other. ALL politicians are crooks but we have to deal with it... thats how it is and how they are...it all about money. Is TDEC really going to help OHV'ers??? In all honesty....Maybe....but probably not. I will believe it when I see it. As far as us complaining and not doing anything... Rolling Eyes I am sure each and everyone on here would lend and hand to help out if they knew it would actually help and probably would if they knew it wouldn't. This is a great group of people. We just don't want smoke blown up our rear ends from someone who doesn't even get out and ride or know anything about an ATV telling us they want to help us. WHY would someone want to help us find more places to ride and build more trails if there wasn't something in it for them??? Don't give me the "I just care about the sport" answer either. "TRUTH" thats what we want whether we like it or not. There has been so many OHV organizations come and go trying to change things and make it better for "US" The ATV'ers who actually get out and ride and promote the sport. I would be willing to help all I can if I knew the real TRUTH. Are they really going to help us?????? Or are they just trying to shut more OHV parks and riding places down???? I know I won't get the Truth but it would be nice... Laughing What exactly is TDEC mission??? Are they going to build more trails or just shut them down??? Whats in it for them??? From what I seen in the past they are worried about the Creek Crossings and that understandable. but it just seem like when the "TRUTH" come out it always not what they said or what they wanted to do at the beginning. I just can't see them wanting to really help us like they say. All we can do is wait and see the end result....but if I was guessing it will be something different that what they are saying they are wanting to do know.... The "TRUTH" What are they really wanting to do???

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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:07 pm

I think it was sstandefer that invited her on hear. Is that correct?
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:17 pm

ivarussell wrote:


Ask away...I am here for you.

I have a few questions:

#1 If TDEC gains control will they close down the Royal Blue OHV Program? This is a big question on alot of our minds.

#2 If they don't plan on closing Royal Blue down, then what gurantees are in place to keep this from happening?

#3 How will the two agencys(TWRA and TDEC) be able to work together to allow access on the WMA's?

#2 If TDEC gains control then what kind of permitting are they going to implement? Currently in state people satisfy the permitting requirement buy purchasing a Hunting License with the Small Game WMA stamp. It cost $45 per year. Out of State is more money.

The House Bills that are proposed leave alot of loop holes and there is really no guarantee that TDEC will do any of it. Is there?
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:23 pm

I did tell her that it was a good oppertunity to promote what OHV4TN was doing. I have dealt with TWRA and they are not interested in ORV trails they promote wildlife and hunting. I don't care which agency promotes ORV trails as long as they get on with business. I love to ride, I'm 52 years old I've riden everything from trail bikes to my latest RZR and I see the number of places to ride getting smaller. I just want to see our state promoting ORV areas. Kentucky and West Virgina are embracing ORV and reaping the rewards. I also know if it is not done correctly more aeas will get closed. People in the timber business have to have Best Mangement Practices (BMP) or Tn Dept of Forestry (TDOF) will shut them down. Those same BMP apply to ORV areas it amounts to protecting runoff and streams. All that is required is to tread lightly. TDEC is more than a group of environmentalist. What ever the agency I'm getting on board I ahve contacted my representative and my senator as well as the chairmen of several sub committes to get ORV trail development and promoting moving in TN. It's my sport and I'm going to promote it. I also spent over 30 years dealing with regulators state and federal in the electric power industry. You may not like their game but IT IS their ball. I learned to play the game.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Thank you for that. You know that we are dealing with a lot of personalities and there will be many questions and plenty of Debate. I say let it roll and let's see what comes out of this thread. Just be considerate and remember that we are all in this together. We are friends not enemies.

Rooster Said that and He Means it!
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:37 pm

SB282,HB366 Proposes an Off-Highway Vehicle Specialty License Plate, raises funds to promote OHV education, safety and trail building resources in TN.

I question another dang tax? I already get taxed to death on my chew and booze, where the heck does that moeny go, seems like government is always broke.

Since OHV area basically revolves around guess what "money" and since this is such hot topic with who gets what money, I think they need a third or an newly developed group to faciliate this action. TDEC will biased in one direction and TWRA would be biased in another, if TN gov't is using HM as a model, then funding for an OHV area should be controlled from people whom come from the OHV community and as BOOT said avivd riders and such.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:41 pm

What kind of setup does Kentucky have? Is it a seperate agency?
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:05 pm

sstandefer wrote:
I did tell her that it was a good oppertunity to promote what OHV4TN was doing. I have dealt with TWRA and they are not interested in ORV trails they promote wildlife and hunting. I don't care which agency promotes ORV trails as long as they get on with business. I love to ride, I'm 52 years old I've riden everything from trail bikes to my latest RZR and I see the number of places to ride getting smaller. I just want to see our state promoting ORV areas. Kentucky and West Virgina are embracing ORV and reaping the rewards. I also know if it is not done correctly more aeas will get closed. People in the timber business have to have Best Mangement Practices (BMP) or Tn Dept of Forestry (TDOF) will shut them down. Those same BMP apply to ORV areas it amounts to protecting runoff and streams. All that is required is to tread lightly. TDEC is more than a group of environmentalist. What ever the agency I'm getting on board I ahve contacted my representative and my senator as well as the chairmen of several sub committes to get ORV trail development and promoting moving in TN. It's my sport and I'm going to promote it. I also spent over 30 years dealing with regulators state and federal in the electric power industry. You may not like their game but IT IS their ball. I learned to play the game.

Here is what puzzles me....about the BMP and TDOF....I have been around logging and sawmills all my life. If you go to any logging area. The skidders are running all over the creeks oil and hydraulic fluid leaking everywhere. Trash everywhere. I have not ever seen or heard of them getting shut down. I have seen it go on for YEARS. They don't fix anything either. There is ALOT of money in logging. Thats the catch to it...OHV maybe not as much. If TDEC would really help us and hold up to there end it would be great......but i doubt it. Anytime any environmentalist get involved its not good for us...atleast that is what it seems like to me. I think something good would come of it if actual ATV'ers had something do to with it instead of the politicians....but that is how it goes. Again...I just want the "TRUTH" what is in it for them like I said in my first post. I love to ride and have all my life. I just don't see and environmentalist group actually wanting to help us. This is all my opinion so no one get mad...this is why I hate Politics.... I am done with my opinions. I will see what everyone has to say.. But I think she needs to read my first post... Wink If she is really here to help I am all for it....but if not I am done having smoke blown up my rear end.. Huh2

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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:16 pm

My partner at work just so happens to think he is an environmentalist (just imagine how my day goes...sigh) ne ways, we had a conversation one day about 4 wheelers. From his aspect he thinks all we do is go thru and tear stuff up and have no respect for the land. I tried to explain to him (but i may as well been talkin to a rock) that he enjoys the beauty by walking but we enjoy the beauty by riding thru it. Yes there are a few ppl that are idiots and could care less what they tear up or throw out, it is those atv'ers that make the rest of us look bad. He also thinks that the really pretty stuff like waterfalls and such that we should not be allowed near.
And boot i have to agree with you those loggers are horrible. It makes me SOOO mad to go thru somewhere and see where they have cut all the trees from an entire mountain down and made a huge mess. They do a lot more damage than we ever will. I think they should have to replace every tree they cut down but dont see that happening.
I dont want to see the places we go and ride taken from us. As long as we stay on a set trail just for us and clean up after ourselves I dont see what the problem with us riding is. Not any worse than cars driving down the road, probably lets off less emissions than a car.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:51 pm

I would like to see a sit down round table discussion on all this. I think that if Ms. Russell is willing that we should have 2 or 3 representatives from each of the ATV Riders Club or Forums to sit down with authorized Representatives from TDEC and TWRA and have a discussion about the OHV community. There are several ATV Groups represented in the State of Tennessee. And I am sure that you will get a good turnout.

Is this possible?
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:54 pm

One more thing I will add if OHV4TN is the real deal and for us atv'ers I am ALL for it. just like like the TDEC sign said...FOOT TRAFFIC ONLY. Rolling Eyes I hope you see where were coming from. I will help all I can, but please... like i have said before DO NOT blow smoke up my rear. Tell us what the REAL agenda is....like or hate just tell us the real truth and then I may help. I know there in it for the money and that fine but don't get us on board to close trails. I have read all your blog and website today. Wink TDEC has closed more riding areas than help keep them open...actions speak louder than words. Every TDEC sign I have ever seen is where they have closed something and says FOOT TRAFFIC only.. scratch

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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:19 pm

This why have to learn to play their game! My rich uncle already died and I didn't get any mony to buy that 2000 acres I want so I have to ride on someone else land so I play by their rules. I can live with that especially if i can help enfluence the rules.

Hope to be back in the GREAT STATE OF TN tommorrow this working out of town is growing old.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:27 pm

I have a 10am meeting in Monteagle on Saturday which means I won't get out of town til noon. Is there a time and place I can meet y'all that afternoon at PC?

All excellent points. BTW, I am doing this because I made a campaign promise to one local fellow who was passionate enough to make me care. It is also a matter of principle. I always finish what I start....this has just been alot harder than I could imagine. There is rarely logic in government and I operate on logic.

The way to deal with government is to find their function or mission statement and hold them to it. TDEC is responsible for the recreational needs of all Tennesseeans. Once you establish a fit, you make sure your program fits into their existing structure so it is easy to implement. TDEC is very good at Trail Building, they do it thru a grant process. Over the past three years we have created an OHV grant program in TDEC that will be ready to implement if and when they get the OHV program. It is a hybrid of the very successful West Virginia Hatfield McCoy system. As discussed earlier, the program is set-up to fund public/private trail building partnerships...ideally between local government and local OHV clubs so that eventually each county has the opportunity to do these projects should they get all their ducks in a row and cooperate. Rural communities will especially benefit from these activities.

Currently, the grant money comes from the federal gas tax and funneled into RTP funding for each state. The money is split up between non-motorized, diverse use and motorized programs. Currently, TWRA gets all the motorized funding because of the Tennessee Off-Highway Vehicle Act. They are not spending the full amount, in fact, there is still a surplus of $1.2 million dollars in the motorized account...just sitting there. I guess you can only spend so much on gravel roads and equipment.

1). Royal Blue would still remain in TWRA's hands. If they receive no further funding whatsoever, their yearly permit fees allow them to keep their doors open according to the figures they have presented. The Off Highway Vehicle Act specifically states that the program should be self-funding. If TWRA closes Royal Blue, it is because they want to not because they can't fund it.

2). The OHV Specialty License Plate is an optional plate that you can purchase at your local County Clerk's office to support the cause. All Specialty Plates are currently $75 instead of the regular $35 for the plain ones. It is not a tax, it is an optional purchase.

3). If all RTP federal funding runs out due to legislation change and/or we want to have more money to build more trails, then we will all come together to decide if we want a permit fee like most states do. That is another role for TOHVA, to be an advocate for the needs of OHV people across the state. I have stated during all my discussions with TDEC that we will not be in favor of any permit fees until we see some successful pilot programs across the state and some positive changes in land use.

4). All of OHV (OHM, ATV, 4x4, ORV, UTV etc) must come together as one voice in order to make our government accountable. 880,000 documented users over the age of 16 is a powerful force if we would just work together. The environmentalists have figured that out, so should we. We outnumber them.

5). Money. OHV people spend $$ 4 to 1 over the closest outdoor recreation participant.

6). OHV is a very family friendly hobby and OHV people are team players. I know in my group, no one gets left behind during a trail ride and they always are there for people in trouble both financially and physically. Now that is my kind of people.

I can't promise you anything, the only thing I can do is guide the process. The rest will be in your hands.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:31 pm

Rooster, I am more than happy to meet with anyone, anytime. You may even want to come to the Senate committee hearing next Tuesday @ 11:30am, LP 12. Our Agency Switch bill is on the docket. We are 100% committed to the switch due to all the reasons discussed, but I welcome all of you at the table, in fact, I highly encourage it.

Lt.Gov Ron Ramsey was the original bill sponsor for the Tennessee Off Highway Vehicle Act and he is onboard to seeing the Act move forward in a new and more responsive home.

You can also get on the legislative update list by signing the guestbook at www.ohv4tn.org
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:51 pm

Ok...I understand your point...somewhat. Laughing But why is TDEC shutting down all the trails to Foot traffic only???? Is there something I am not understanding...??? Its just hard for some us to trust them after seeing some of there actions and signs that have that saying..."Foot Traffic Only" I know there is something I am not getting here think

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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:52 pm

As I said in an earlier post, TDEC is a two-headed beast. Environmental and Recreation. Up until now, the anti-access people have had free rein on the policy making, plus we are our own worse enemy. We don't know the rules, so we are constantly breaking them unknowingly or we just tell them to go to h*** and do it anyway. Cowboys and Indians stuff.

My small town of Monteagle has told TDEC to go to h*** for years concerning our Sewer plant issue until they finally came down and spanked us real hard with massive fines and a moratorium on ANY development. That cost us taxpayers huge in rate increases and then just Sunday, Sewer Plant #1 had a catastrophic failure and spewed 700,000 gallons of raw waste down our mountain and into the drinking water system. My mayor thinks duct tape is the answer to all infrastructure issues and now we are all paying the price. Sometimes there is a reason for a little environmental respect.

The only way to make sure that our interests are being looked after is if we all stand up for our rights as citizens of this state. No one is going to do it for us. When we fall asleep at the wheel, the government will do whatever the heck it wants because somebody has an agenda. The person who knows the most rules wins in life, it is time we start playing the game to our advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:01 pm

TOP 10 WAYS YOU CAN HELP THE OHV CAUSE


1). Join a Club and get involved! Get on a committee, help organize a trail ride, recruit new members. The more the merrier!

2). No Club in your area? Start one! www.nohvcc.org has new club start-up kits available to all who ask.

3). Already in a Club? Become a leader, teach trail etiquette, preach tread lightly, and educate the youth! And for goodness sakes, STAY OUT OF THE WATER.

4). Spread the Gospel. If you don't have a PR Chairman already, get one! Build your media list and everytime your club does something for the community, tell them about it! Everytime your club does something for the kids, tell them about it! Everytime your club does something for the environment, tell them about it!

5). Parades, Parades, Parades. Y'all look so cool in them!! Be proud and raise that flag high!!

6). Be a Role Model. Know the rules, walk the walk and be the person a child can look up to. They are our future.

7). Get Political. Elect Local Leaders who are sympathetic to the OHV Cause. Heck, run for office! Y'all are a huge voting bloc, organize and use it!

Cool. Support your local business community. Find ways to increase revenue for them during your trail rides and events. Quantify and document the results.

9). Join larger Organizations that fight for the OHV Cause. TOHVA, SFWDA, NOHVCC and Blue Ribbon Coalition are great ones to consider! These organizations also help you keep up-to-date on local, state and federal Land Use issues. Knowledge is Power.

And last but certainly not least...

10). Build an OHV Trail System in your County! Start looking for city or county land that is not being utilized. We should have OHV Trail BMP's in place this year as well as Tools to help you get the job done. Grab the Brass Ring and go for it!
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:29 pm

How come everytime i turn around there seems to be more and more of former riding areas that are not torn up, being turned over to TWRA? We all know their management of the OHV system has failed considerably, yet why do we continue to let this happen?

The small minority of riders out there that do break the rules, because they "have always rode that way and will continue until they die" keep on teaching their kids and the younger generation by example.

It's time we set a new example for the current and new riders out there. Show the other OHV-friendly states that we here in TN can too, become an OHV-state. I know TDEC has left a bad taste in some of our mouths, and since TWRA is about in the same boat so to speak. But Since TWRA hasn't stepped to the plate, i think maybe we might consider giving TDEC a chance.

I don't like it either, but i see we have no other choice. Sometimes you have to play by their rules in order to enjoy the benefits.

It's a form of the government, there are always going to be different special interest groups trying to persuade "their" ways upon the majority. We just have to hope they can play by their rules as we do.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:00 pm

We will all be coming back in to the camping area at the entrance Sat afternoon .
I don't know just what time and some will probably be coming back earlier than others depending on how far they have to travel back home. You could just hang around the area and be able to meet most of the group. I would guess between 3 and 4pm.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:00 am

Thank you Ms. Russell for going more in depth to explain your position in this matter. I am with you about us all pulling together to make ourselves heard and show what a great group of people we really are. I am tired of sitting back and letting things happen. I am ready to be a part of making a difference and standing up for our rights by making some noise. I like the idea of bringing the media into the picture and getting the word out about what this sport means to families who enjoy the outdoors. We need to make someone aware that we have been trying to "ADOPT" trails by cleaning them up and encouraging others to do the same. I love riding with my children and I am teaching them that they are to "pack out what they pack in" and "be respectful of the beauty that God has given us to enjoy." I am not physically able to HIKE thru the woods and I don't know how much longer I will be able to ride my atv but I want to be able to enjoy it as long as I can. All I can say is that when I am on the trails, I continuously thank God for the beauty that I see and the opportunity to get out and enjoy nature on/in a vehicle that allows me to see places that I otherwise would not get to see.
If you are truly here to help us, then I welcome you and your advice. If you are here to rake in votes for another campaign or to make money, you are in the wrong place. This is not a formal club and we do not charge dues so we have no money to "hire" you or anyone else to further our cause. However, if we see that you are sincere and can make things happen that benefit our recreation, then you would have some of the best people on this earth behind you.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:43 am

Well said Jane
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:02 pm

Trust is earned, my friends. I don't operate any other way. I am here because one fella was passionate enough to make me take notice...the rest has just confirmed the reason for his convictions. I guess I am just a sucker for the underdogs. And I do believe the good Lord works in mysterious ways. I am just His warrior.
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PostSubject: Re: OHV4TN   Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:10 pm

Here is a small portion of some dialogue found on another site:



In 2004 when in Gilbert WV unloading our atvs a police officer pulls up and starts talking to us. We sat with him for over an hour and talked about riding. The trail program is run by the state but is a totally different agency. Has its own boss and commitee. Also while we were talking to him the mayor of Gilbert stopped and talked. The officer we talked to was a state trooper. He said they go in rotation, so long on the trails and so long on the highways. Every dollar they take in from permits, donations or whatever stays with the trail program. Because that is all they have power over. They have the power to go to landowners and offer them certain incentives to sign on with the program.

The Name of the trail program is Hatfield McCoy. It is managed by HATFIELD-MCCOY REGIONAL RECREATION AUTHORITY

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/Code.cfm?chap=20&art=14

Maybe The State of Tennessee could do the same thing with a bunch of the land they have, and some of that excess Lottery Money.
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