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 Running hot

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darkstar
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PostSubject: Running hot   Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:31 pm

My race bike likes to run hot .
Ok it has no thermostat - i have an oil cooler installed below the rad - maybe the air is sucking upward .But its way below .
Im running plain normal screen across the front of my bike .
This dosent help with air flow but it keeps the mud off .
It will run 24 hard miles befor its over .
What happenes is when im riding it hard -The temp. spikes up and thats when she will puke alittle fluid .
Then she cools down very very fast if i get off it - all the way to 170.
Then if i get on it really hard and stay on it it spikes right at boling point .
Then if i catch a straight away it cools down .
But after about 7 of those ive lost to much fluid and ill go hot and hit limp mode .

Yall think engine ice will cure it ???
And where could i mount the oil cooler ????
Would my electrical run 2 fans if the second one was small ?
I was thinking i could put the oil cooler right in front of the pod and fan it .
Im alittle worried about rasing the oil cooler up that high tho .

Any suggestions ???
The engine is pretty a sweetly built 840 by Greg .Mr RPM
He dynoed it at 78+ RWHP - right Greg ?
No body believe me when i tell umm that .
I dont care either its fast as chity.
He said perhaps my rad is swelled but it dont look like it at all .

I think i just need more cooling power or maybe the engine ice will cure it .
Its real real close to being ok as is .

It never ran hot untill we got warmer temps and then it only did it once - and that was because it had so much mud on it .

But its gonna do it again because in testing today it was spiking up over and over to just barely hot enough to make it boil .
Now by this time im running more plain water than anti freeze so it boils easy . Thats what i want for testing anyhow .

Anyhow im watching the temps real close - if i ride it really really hard i cant keep it cool enough - itt flip flop between 190 and 215+.I need some ideas bad - it killed my last race and i was in second gaining fast.
This is with the fan on full time .

My thoughts are bigger rad - who makes one ?
Just get a rad shop ?????
And of course a bigger fan .

Ok or i re mount the oil cooler and keep it cool-
Or i get a bigger oil cooler .

Any advice ????
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CanAmChris
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:13 pm

is the radiator clean?
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Dan
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:13 pm

First of all, is your radiator clean? Secondly, is your fan working properly? Have you measured the Fan On and Fan Off temps? You could bypass the fan thermostat and make it run full time. From the temp spiking situations, you could possibly have some obstructive debris inside the block or head. Is the head gaskets orficed properly for the power your engine is making?

DO NOT use Engine Ice (propylene glycol) in an engine designed to run automotive antifreeze (ethylene glycol)... it is not as efficient as regular coolant... to the tune of 2.25% less for the same coolant mix. It's boiling point is also lower; for the normal 50% mix, the BP is 256F versus 265F for ethylene glycol. I would suggest that on race day, you improve your coolant efficiency by running a 25% mix of ethylene glycol. That will give your cooling system an approx 4.5% efficiency boost above the normal 50% coolant mix.
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wildman
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:26 pm

is it lean? maybe richen it up a lil
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powerbomb400
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:54 am

What octane are you running Jerri. You might need to raise the octane if you raised the compression ratio. I'm with Dan about making the fan run all the time. Put a off/on switch in case you get in deep water you can turn it off.
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:29 pm

Rad is clean - i like the idea about rasing octane .
I have a temp switch - fan goes on at 170.
Ive got it wired straight now .
I could rasise octane to 100 - i hear that engine runs best at 100 even.
I think ive got some air pockets .

Dan and Sammy - Roger - badride says run Evans.
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:26 pm

Look at this stuff - boiling point of 400f

http://www.evanscooling.com/npg-r/

Adter reading all the responses on other forums im convinced i just got to muddy at the race and now i have air in the heads or somewhere .
Im gonna Bleed it - looking for the bleed screws rt now.
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Dan
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:34 pm

darkstar wrote:
Look at this stuff - boiling point of 400f

http://www.evanscooling.com/npg-r/

Adter reading all the responses on other forums im convinced i just got to muddy at the race and now i have air in the heads or somewhere .
Im gonna Bleed it - looking for the bleed screws rt now.
That is pure propylene glycol. DO NOT run this in a engine designed for automotive antifreeze. It is not nearly efficient enough to transport the excess heat out of the engine.

This stuff has about 4x the viscosity of your normal antifreeze. You will need a high volume pump (min 4x) just to move enough of this stuff around your engine. You also need high volume hblock and heads. Add on a large radiator, about 4x, then you may keep it cool. For coolant efficiency, this stuff SUCKS. However, your kids won't die if they drink a bunch of it... it is environmentally safe. IMHO, this is the only good point this stuff has.


Last edited by Dan on Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CanAmChris
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:46 pm

Dan wrote:
darkstar wrote:
Look at this stuff - boiling point of 400f

http://www.evanscooling.com/npg-r/

Adter reading all the responses on other forums im convinced i just got to muddy at the race and now i have air in the heads or somewhere .
Im gonna Bleed it - looking for the bleed screws rt now.
That is pure propylene glycol. DO NOT run this in a engine designed for automotive antifreeze.

Ok I just gotta ask why not? There are lots of BigBores running it and No issues to speak of.. There is even a brute force 750 with a HL triple flow in our group running it and he has had no issues..
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Dan
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:55 pm

BTW, don't use Evans data either... use CRC data or other reputable source.

Why not? It is much less efficient. If you don't care about your temps, then use it... the bore and head temps will be considerably higher.
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Dan
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:01 pm

BTW, if this stuff was better than ethylene glycol, then why isn't it being used by auto manufacturers? It has approximately the same cost in high volume purchases.

The reason the auto manufacturers don't use it is because of the cost of the much larger cooling systems required to keep their engines cool.
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:54 pm

Dan it sure is popular - i am after lower temp man .No id like a higer boling temp to .
But over all i want to lower the operating temp .
My dream would be even running it hard it stay at 170-
Hard to do - alot of people are running Evans but i understand precisly your thinking .

If it dose not tranfer heat im not interested .

Can i aske you this Dan what additives can i use to increase my boil point .
Ive heard water wetter .
My temps are not that high anyhow - ive already almost kicked this things butt .
Im thinking bigger rad stronger fan and fanning the oil cooler for a permanent solution .

Whats happening is after that 25 mile mark ive spiked a few times - im running the thing really really hard - So during those spikes im losing alittle fluid each time .
Thats where the end comes .
My spikes are never higher than 230 , actually i havent seen 220 yet but im assuming it made it there .
Ok one more weird thing - my engine light will come on indicating its hot ???
But it will do that even when the engine is totally cool to the touch .
Mr Rpm took the thermostat out he says - i havent checked but he was sure of that .
He hasent offered a solution - he says Rad is swollen - thats it so far .
Ive inspected it very very closely at night in pitch black dark and the light comes through so i can see each fin and everything look great .
I wonder how much temp i can lose for running 100 octane .
Ive been cheating and running high test .

Thank you very much for the responses - id like to quote some of yours Dan over on can am talk .
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:56 pm

Keep in mind - this hasent happend befor now . But the level im riding it at hasent happened either . Also the mud .
I dunno i was able to make it push fluid out even just running it real hard on an oval track .
That points to air in the head - right ?

Read this statement by Evans
Are we sure this is the safe stuff ?

It is Evans' best fluid for transferring intense heat from hot cylinder heads of high performance engines to radiators because of its better heat conductivity and lower viscosity, while providing a huge separation between the operating temperature of the coolant and its boiling point.

Better heat conductivity
They offer another product that is safe - this one is not advertised as safe .
Ill dig alittle more .
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:05 pm

It is ---Non-Aqueous Propylene Glycol


http://www.evanscooling.com/water-based-vs-waterless-differentiators/

I trust Dan actually over these guys - are you positive man .
I thought we were already using propylene glycol just 50 /50 with water .


Maybe im better with water wetter .
Also im proably fine as soon as i get the air out of the head .
But im always gonna be borderline fine - thats not good enough .
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wildman
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:58 pm

richen it up about 1 point across the whole trottle range, wont be noticeable in the seat of the pants might lose 1/4 of a hp, big motors are hard to keep cool, richen it up and you will fix ur prob by 70%
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Dan
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:09 pm

darkstar wrote:
It is Evans' best fluid for transferring intense heat from hot cylinder heads of high performance engines to radiators because of its better heat conductivity and lower viscosity, while providing a huge separation between the operating temperature of the coolant and its boiling point.
The last phrase here is true for your situation... the rest is 180 wrong... pure hype...

Keep the ethylene glycol mix... about 25%... change it often. WATER is the most efficient coolant known that is feasible and practical to use.

Any additive will raise your boiling point, but will decrease your coolants efficiency.

Where is this 170 number coming from? Most modern engines set the operating temp at 190-195. The easiest way to raise the boiling point is to increase to operating pressure. OTOH, your problem could be a bad radiator cap... spewing at too low pressures. Try a new cap, or preferrably a new cap at higher pressure. I do not know what CanAm recommends, but a 190 engine needs about a 15 lb/in cap.

Now, back to the propylene glycol (PG) problems. It has higher viscosity making it more difficult to move through the system. This is the reason that racing machines running PG require a 4x larger capacity cooling system. PG, because of it's higher molecular weight cannot remove energy from the bore/head as good an EG-water mix... why? Smaller molecules allows faster energy transfer.

Basic physics lesson... higher temperature in any material makes the molecules vibrate(move) at a higher velocity. Kinetic energy is 0.5mv. Small masses are easier to accelerate to higher velocities. Energy transfers more easily to smaller molecular weights (smaller mass). This is the reason water is the most practical energy transfer medium. The low molecular weight has another advantage, namely, higher energy capicity, i.e., it will hold more energy per pound or per gallon than any other liquid or liquid combinations. You see this in a number called specific heat. Water has the higest specific heat of all practical liquids.

PG has lower specific heat making it NOT carry as much energy as ethylene glycol (EG) per pound or per gallon. Look up the data for yourself.

Normal automotive antifreeze is EG based, not PG. AS i said before, if PG were better a better coolant than EG, then Detroit would have us all using PG in our engines... also Japan, and Germany, and on, and on...

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JodyT
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:57 pm

Dan.... hail
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bubbanewf
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:14 am

Your window screen probably is the entire problem. It can clog up with mud just like the radiator can, and once it does, air wont go through it to cool the radiator even if the rad itself isnt clogged. Kind of like the old timers who used to put their spare tire in front of their grille and wonder why their truck overheated on a trip. Try screening with larger holes.

Spray your radiator with silicone spray to help keep mud from sticking. But dont bock the radiator airflow.

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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:20 pm

So besides freezing - why add any EG at all for summer use ???
The 170 figure is where a Rotax will produce the most power thats all its not really a pratical number .

Bubba i wish i were that simple .The screen is so clean .
Ive got air in the head almost for sure .
Its well known that these engines are under cooled anyhow .They run umm dang near hot for one reason and one reason only - Emissions

The fluid never escapes from the rad Cap Dan - its squirts out into over flow and as it cools it gets sucked back in .
Well ive got some bleeding to do .
There was another guy who had the same problem and bleeding cured it .
But back to the real game - when im racing its gonna get muddy i have modified the front so that mud cant get at it as easy and air can .
My thoughts are im eventually going to need a better colling system or a not as hot engine .
This thing is a real screamer .
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Dan
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:00 pm

darkstar wrote:
So besides freezing - why add any EG at all for summer use ???

The fluid never escapes from the rad Cap Dan - its squirts out into over flow and as it cools it gets sucked back in .
Well, pure water is highly corrosive. The system needs the protection additives found in EG antifreeze to stop corrosion. This is why it needs changing often when running low concentrations. The EG also raises the boiling point. A 25% mix will have a normal boiling point about 235-240F. Add a 15psi cap and the BP will go upwards to approximately 270.

Squirting out into the overflow is normal. It better, or you will have a bursted hose, or bursted radiator. The coolant expands more with temperature, i.e., the volume of coolant increases faster than the volume of the metal components in the engine. The excess coolant has to go somewhere, i.e., the overflow bottle. When the engine cools, the coolant gets sucked back into the system.

BTW, any large air bubble in the block or head gets swept out by the coolant velocity and finds itself deposited in the radiator. The next heat cycle will push that slug of air into the overflow bottle. Hence the need to always check the fluid level in the overflow bottle before starting.

BTW, if you want your engine to operate at 170F, be sure you have a 170F thermostat installed. The coolant thermostat is the temperature control on your engine. The fan sensor points need to be adjusted for this temp also.
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:15 pm

Remember - i dont have a thermo stat.
Ok Greg just told me to forget the air theory he said hes sure i got swelling somewhere in the Rad so im changing it .
I didnt know it can just swell a little bit here or there he said change it first no matter what then try .Apprently the swelling can be be imperceptable.
Im gonna take it out right now for one last big test .
Thanx man .
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Dan
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:48 pm

If you don't have a thermostat installed, coolant will circulate continuously through the radiatorand your engine will never reach a stable operating temperature. Find you a high volume thermostat... and install it. Otherwise, you got no control of engine temp and it cannot run properly without attaining a constant operating temp. Your thermostat is half the life of your engine...

BTW, if coolant is squirting into your overflow during high temp periods, I seriously doubt you have any swelling in the radiator because the cap is doing it's job. The radiator cap is the pressure relief on your cooling system.

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NO4NCRP
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:09 pm

Dan wrote:
If you don't have a thermostat installed, coolant will circulate continuously through the radiatorand your engine will never reach a stable operating temperature. Find you a high volume thermostat... and install it. Otherwise, you got no control of engine temp and it cannot run properly without attaining a constant operating temp. Your thermostat is half the life of your engine...

BTW, if coolant is squirting into your overflow during high temp periods, I seriously doubt you have any swelling in the radiator because the cap is doing it's job. The radiator cap is the pressure relief on your cooling system.


100% correct. Jerri, I tried running without a thermostat in my 916 and had the same issues. Stick a thermostat back in there. Without one the coolant never slows down enough to cool. I've also had extremely good luck running engine ice. I too highly doubt you have any swealing and if you do Im sure thats not the fix to your problem
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:09 pm

BTW Dan i have a temp gauge for the water and i watch it closely . Mr RPM took out the thermostates so he says 100 % ill look to be sure - it was a very cold natuerd bike so i think he did take the thermostats out .
I just finished test - i ran the short oval track 25 loops as fast as i could drive it - never more it did great .
Thats about 5 miles consisting of 5 mph to 35 maybe 40 on a good day .
Watching the temp gauge more than i should have been .
It was steady on about 190.

Ok i got on the road and let her eat - full throttle about a half a mile at a time .
Within 3 goes she spiked passed boling point and went to 220 then 230 .
Started to rise i cut her off .
Ok got it home and half the coolent was gone - all of it went out the resivour and onto the bike - i already knew this as i could see smell it coming out as i was doing 60 or so.
So its the fields where she runs hot then boils over then im out .
Has absolutly nothing to do with hard in the woods riding .
It never gets hot if i dont open it up.
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Running hot   Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:10 pm

NO4 read that . what do ya say .
The engine builder took the thermos out - are there two of umm ?
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