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 Pickett Problems

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JodyT
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:44 pm

Went up to Pickett today to see Carl and look around a bit. Basically this all comes down to insurance. Cumberland forest does not want to shut the riding down. They are looking for protection from lawsuits, via insurance. Cumberland forest has 3500 acres up there, it is in many different tracks, mostly along t3 and t1 back to Dry hollow. I saw several signs along T1 coming from Dry hollow, looked like they signed what they could get to in a moderately capable 4X4 truck. I did not see any signs on any side trails.



Talking with Carl he told me Cumberland forest has gave him 1st shot at the access rights to this 3500 acres. I think the word “Club” is the wrong word to be using for what Carl is trying to do. He is trying to secure Insurance for ATV riding on this land. That is all the landowner is asking for.
The areas outlined in yellow is the Cumberland forest tracts…



If Carl can’t get insurance for ATV riding then Cumberland Forest is going to lease it to hunters for the cost of hunting insurance. At this time Carl has not found a company that can provide this insurance. He has been in contact with the company that provides Coal Creek insurance, but at this time they have not gave him a price. He is going up to Brimstone and Trailsend this coming week to talk to them about the insurance they have. I don’t think Carl is doing this to get rich, heck he charged me $4 for parking and $1.50 for a Dagwood sandwich today. That’s not prices that are going to make any one rich.
After talking with Carl and riding around for a few hours up there today I put my name on the list of supporters, and told Carl I would do anything I could to help him. I have been riding up there since I was a kid, and I have seen what happens to an area once hunters take over. This has my full support and I hope everyone else that enjoys riding at Pickett will get on board and keep one more area from closing down.
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Rooster
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:54 pm

Good Deal Jody. Hearing your analysis of the situation I will be lending my support. Thanks for going up there today and clearing the air on what really is happening up there. If Carl was to find insurance, did he give any indication has to what or how the cost burden will be shared amongst everyone?
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JodyT
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:10 pm

Not really...I wanted to talk to him about that some when I came back in this evening, but coming back to the truck I had a run in with a Large Yellow wood hornet. I got stung in the back of the head. It nearly knocked me off the wheeler. I came home and got in bed and passed out for about 4 hours. I have been stung by scorpions, yellow jacket's, bumble bees, and red wasp's this is by far the worst pain I have experienced. My head feels like someone hit me with a sledge hammer!

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pwm
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:31 pm

I will be calling Monday with my support.

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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:23 am

http://www.oigcorp.com/hunt_club_insurance.htm?gclid=CLq2kuKXv7ECFQUGnQodaCAABw


Assoc. of Consulting Foresters
ATV Tours & ATV Operators
Bed & Breakfast
Dude and Guest Ranch
Fishing and Hunting Lodges
Hunting and Fishing Guides
Hunting Preserves
Hunt Clubs and Leases
Jeep Tours and Jeep Operators
Outfitters & Guides
Paddle Board
Resorts
RV Parks and Campgrounds
Gun Ranges
Gun Stores
Snowmobile Tour Insurance
Trail Rides and Stables
Trap, Skeet, Sport Clay Shooting
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CNC_guy
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:30 am

Myself and a couple others also took a ride out there on Sunday and traveled down to speak with Carl. He threw the word club around again but basically his idea of the club is just the people who have permits. He did mention he would possibly need volunteers from time to time to help maintain the trails as this is part of the insurance requirements. Also, he said the fellow he's been speaking to with the lumber company said that he would help enforce the permits. Carl didn't exactly know how that would work at this time though. He said that he already had almost 1,000 acres leased from another land owner that wanted the riding to continue......that's very good news I think.

Also, I misunderstood what his wife was talking about during the phone conversation. There would be no plans to close any trailheads by them. I think she was thinking out loud as to what the lumber company might do. They want everything as is.

Well, except one thing. He said he'd like to build a smooth trail down to the store if he can get it worked out to allow quick access to the store.

As far as pricing, the only thing he mentioned was about 12 dollars a day for a daily permit. We told him we had just paid $22 at Brimstone and he thought that was pretty high. I guess yearly or monthly permits will depend a whole lot on the lease and insurance costs. Like Jody said, he's not looking to make a ton of money here.

It eased my mind to speak to them face to face....I could really see he wants this thing to work.
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:49 am

The outdoor insurance company said that without a an actual guiding service or a real hinting club they could not help and she also said general waivers would take care of liability for the land owner and that is usually how the liability is handled - she added that we might have a hard time finding this type of coverage .
All i know is if it can be insured , someone sales it .

If we were a hunting club - waaa laaa no problem
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:59 pm

I spent some more time with a local insurance company that i know the owner of very well - He said the Landowner could easily purchase liability insurnace on their land holdings and atv use would be covered as would many other things .
He said perhaps offer to pay the premium .

He said hed never heard of a company that offered insurance for general ohv use but he thought checking with other ohv areas/ clubs would be a great place to start.
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:40 pm

NOHVCC - has a list of insurance compainies
Check it out ill get the link later
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:02 pm

http://www.nohvcc.org/tools/Insurance.aspx
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:06 pm

A couple of these look promising Smile



American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) and All-Terrain Vehicle Association (ATVA)
States Covered: All
Additional States: All
Coverage: General Liability
Event Coverage: Yes

Policy issued by: various
To receive the benefits of liability insurance from the AMA and ATVA a club must become chartered with either one of the organizations.
AMA/ATVA Promoting Club Charters are able to sanction their events with AMA/ATVA. Insurance for AMA/ATVA sanctioned events is available through the AMA/ATVA at a low premium. At no cost to the club, AMA/ATVA supplies many of the forms, etc. necessary to hold a sanctioned event.
A good start to gaining information about chartering and sanctioning with AMA/ATVA would be to review the AMA/ATVA Club and Promoter Kit information on their website. From the AMA home page www.AMADIRECTLINK.com , click on “Clubs & Promoters” located in the blue shaded area on the left or click here for a direct link to the Clubs and Promoters Page.
Berrian Insurance Group, Vermont
States Covered: All
Coverage: General Liability
Event Coverage: No

Policy issued by: Various A-Rated Carriers
The policies written will cover association, individual clubs, and private lands

Contact:
Kim Berrian
PO Box 647
Waitsfield, VT 05673
(802) 496-9190
KBerrian@bigvermont.com
www.bigvermont.com

BW Insurance Agency
States Covered: IA, NE, SD
Additional States: Contact Company for details
Coverage: General Liability; Directors and Officers Liability
Event Coverage: No

Policy issued by: various insurance companies
The policies written will cover associations, clubs, private, or public lands.

Contact:
Jason Kelber
205 Main St
PO Box 478
Valentine, NE 69201
(402) 376-2080
Jason.Kelber@bankofthewest.com
www.bankofthewest.com
Erickson-Larsen, Inc
States Covered: MN, WI, ND, SD, MT
Additional States: None
Coverage: General Liability; Property Damage; Trail Maintenance and Grooming Equipment
Event Coverage: Yes

Policy issued by: Northfield Insurance Company, a subsidary of Travlers Insurance Company
The policies written will cover clubs and associations.
If the event is providing alcohol, liquor liability coverage will need to be added. This coverage can get expensive.

Contact:
Dale Bergstrom
6425 Sycamore Court
Maple Grove, MN 55369
(800) 442-3168
dbergstrom@ericksonlarseninc.com
www.ericksonelarseninc.com

Garceau, Wenick-Kutz, Magowan Insurance Agency, Inc.
States Covered: AL, AR, CO, GA, HI, IA, IN, KS, KY, MI, MN, MO, MS, NH, NY, OH, PA, SC, TN, TX, UT, WI
Additional States: Contact Company for details
Coverage: General Liability
Event Coverage: Non-Competition Events only

Policy issued by: various A-rated Insurance carriers
The policies written will cover associations, clubs, and private lands.

Contact:
Jeff Magowan
823 Ludington St
Escanaba, MI 49829
(906) 789-0900 x 112
jam@garceauins.com
www.garceauins.com
TrailPass, LLC
States Covered: All
Additional States: All
Coverage: General Liability
Event Coverage: Yes

Policy issued by: TrailPass/Mt Hawley Insurance
TrailPass is actually an off road management company. We provide existing clubs and parks with a variety of services that they might not be able to obtain on their own. We also assist new clubs during their formation and work with them from the initial pre meetings on through their incorporation.
Organizations need to be a member of the TrailPass network.
TrailPass Insurance for Clubs (PDF)
TrailPass Insurance for Private Parks (PDF

Contact:
Lee Ann Harris
151 N Auringer Rd
Constantia, NY 13044
(800) 381-2260
lharris@trailpass.com
www.trailpass.com
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:09 pm

This one ????
Garceau, Wenick-Kutz, Magowan Insurance Agency, Inc.
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Rooster
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:28 am

Jerry,

I would think that Carl needs this information you are posting about insurance. Are you passing it along to him since I don't think he visits these forums.

Also, is someone reaching out to the Jeep Clubs/Groups. They ride that area alot too.
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CNC_guy
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:29 am

Bellman, from the Harlan County Ridge Runner forums had an interesting statistic about the law in Kentucky that protects land owners. He said it's been challenged in court 5 times in 45 years and the land owner won every time. Wayne Lumber of course said they didn't trust the law to protect them and it wasn't worth it to see if it did work. Maybe if the new company read over the law, they would let Carl lease the land and would trust the law to protect Carl and them from liability. I'll post the text of the law below.


Last edited by CNC_guy on Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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CNC_guy
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:31 am

KRS 411.190 Obligations of owner to persons using land for recreation.
(1) As used in this section:
(a) "Land" means land, roads, water, watercourses, private ways and buildings, structures, and machinery or equipment when attached to the realty;
(b) "Owner" means the possessor of a fee, reversionary, or easement interest, a tenant, lessee, occupant, or person in control of the premises;
(c) "Recreational purpose" includes, but is not limited to, any of the following, or any combination thereof: hunting, fishing, swimming, boating, camping, picnicking, hiking, bicycling, horseback riding, pleasure driving, nature study, water-skiing, winter sports, and viewing or enjoying historical, archaeological, scenic, or scientific sites; and
(d) "Charge" means the admission price or fee asked in return for invitation or permission to enter or go upon the land but does not include fees for general use permits issued by a government agency for access to public lands if the permits are valid for a period of not less than thirty (30) days.

(2) The purpose of this section is to encourage owners of land to make land and water areas available to the public for recreational purposes by limiting their liability toward persons entering thereon for such purposes.

(3) Except as specifically recognized by or provided in subsection (6) of this section, an owner of land owes no duty of care to keep the premises safe for entry or use by others for recreational purposes, or to give any warning of a dangerous condition, use, structure, or activity on the premises to persons entering for such purposes.

(4) Except as specifically recognized by or provided in subsection (6) of this section, an owner of land who either directly or indirectly invites or permits without charge any person to use the property for recreation purposes does not thereby:
(a) Extend any assurance that the premises are safe for any purpose;
(b) Confer upon the person the legal status of an invitee or licensee to whom a duty of care is owed; or
(c) Assume responsibility for or incur liability for any injury to person or property caused by an act or omission of those persons.

(5) Unless otherwise agreed in writing, the provisions of subsections (3) and (4) of this section shall be deemed applicable to the duties and liability of an owner of land leased to the state or any subdivision thereof for recreational purposes.

(6) Nothing in this section limits in any way any liability which otherwise exists:
(a) For willful or malicious failure to guard or warn against a dangerous condition, use, structure, or activity; or
(b) For injury suffered in any case where the owner of land charges the person or persons who enter or go on the land for the recreational use thereof, except that in the case of land leased to the state or a subdivision thereof, any consideration received by the owner for the lease shall not be deemed a charge within the meaning of this section.

(7) Nothing in this section shall be construed to:
(a) Create a duty of care or ground of liability for injury to persons or property;
(b) Relieve any person using the land of another for recreational purposes from any obligation which he may have in the absence of this section to exercise care in his use of the land and in his activities thereon, or from the legal consequences of failure to employ such care; or
(c) Ripen into a claim for adverse possession, absent a claim of title or legal right.

( 8 ) No action for the recovery of real property, including establishment of prescriptive easement, right-of-way, or adverse possession, may be brought by any person whose claim is based on use solely for recreational purposes.


Effective: July 15, 2002
History: Amended 2002 Ky. Acts ch. 306, sec. 2, effective July 15, 2002. -- Amended 2000 Ky. Acts ch. 338, sec. 12, effective July 14, 2000. -- Amended 1998 Ky. Acts ch. 275, sec. 12, effective July 15, 1998. -- Created 1966 Ky. Acts ch. 252, secs. 1 to 7.
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:00 am

No i figured someone would vet the insurance info and pass it along
That law sounds strong and would make insurance cheap
The jeep clubs are who does all the trash pick up
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:31 am

I sent it to Carl
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:19 pm

darkstar wrote:

The jeep clubs are who does all the trash pick up

Yes I know that. I interact with the Jeep Clubs from the Knoxville Area that ride Coal Creek alot. The ones that came and did a trash cleanup last month was East Tennessee 4WD Club and Knox Off Road.
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:02 am

Well they to get in on keeping it open as well
Can you let them know Rooster
Carl has several promising leads who are working on policys
Already and we have some time so thats good
Thanks
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:10 pm

Spoke with Carl for awhile
Things are looking great
107 people on the list and not all individuals
Some of that 107 represent a entire group
If you havent got on the list do so soon
Keep Pickett open
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:29 pm

Heard from Sponge today. Carl said insurance is gonna cost $10,000 per year.
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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:28 am

Carl has someone in Jamestown who says they can write the policy cheaper than that but it will be expensive - it covers the entire place including the private landowners about 10k acres total.
We know that one group has pledged close to 500 members in addition to the 107 on the list so the cost seems doable .
Another important fact it that this is cost for first year , every insurance company said that the cost will go down after the initial first year .
Its one good chance to make sure Pickett stays open Carl think he will have no problem obtaining the money from us riders that live far off and then again from the many local riders and even some of the landowner / riders.

What would people here, pay per year, to keep Pickett open ?
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:54 pm

I would gladly pay $100 per year for a riding permit. That being said, I would expect some services like:

Trail Maintenance
Secured Trail Head at Blackhouse Mtn Road
A bonifide entity running the show up there (A Company, Sanctioned ATV Club or similiar)
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pwm
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:33 pm

I have to agree with Rooster on this. Good intentions often end badly without organization.

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darkstar
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PostSubject: Re: Pickett Problems   Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:06 pm

Im alot different in my expectations
I would only want one thing
That Pickett remain open
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